This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.wesley morrisI’m Wesley Morris. And this is “Cannonball.” Today, they call it “The Late Show,” but I mean, they’re putting it to bed awfully early.I almost can’t believe I’m saying this. But tonight is the last episode of “The Late Show with Stephen Colbert.” CBS has done pulled the plug, probably prematurely. But I mean, welcome to late night television, whose thing for drama sometimes brings it closer to daytime soap. But now the crisis, I don’t know, it’s existential. There’s no talk show going into the late night slot.Meanwhile, over at ABC, Jimmy Kimmel lives in almost weekly risk of cancelation now. And their crimes can basically be boiled down to offending the president. But there’s one late night show that keeps on keeping on. And maybe it’s also time to put that one down. It’s been 51 years. And it really might be time to say goodbye to “Saturday Night Live.”For the last five years, I have thought, now’s the time. Just end it. End it. This show was never about polish. And part of the draw is the chaos and magic of live television, where anything can go wrong. And you’ve always had to put up with weak sketches. But it wasn’t always this sad. “SNL” used to do it for me. I mean, I’d pick an obvious recurring sketch like The Californians.archived recording 1Maybe you should get going before Stuart gets home.archived recording 2All right. I think I’m going to take Kenny View Drive over to San Vicente, and then make a left and go on the 405 North.wesley morrisI mean, it was supposed to be a joke on — I mean, I don’t know, so many things, soap operas, LA’s driving culture, the rich, chardonnay.archived recording 2I think you should go home now, Devon.archived recording 1There’s nothing going on, Stuart.archived recording 2You should go home. Get back on San Vicente —wesley morrisI mean, one of the things that’s funny about this sketch also is just somebody is going to lose it.archived recording 1Stuart, at this time of day, it’s going to be jammed. Are you crazy?wesley morrisIt also managed to transcend satire and turn it into this amazing kind of nonsense sketch. Whenever the writing dies, the comedy is still there for The Californians. And then it could take whatever was topical and hook that to a great character. Sometimes you get a catchphrase.archived recording 3I am Hans.wesley morrisI’m Hans and Franz. And we’re here to pump you up.archived recording 4Now’s the time on “Sprockets” when we dance!wesley morrisAnd then there’s Dieter doing his little sprocket dance. Dum, da, da. And the Sally O’Malley just I’m 50.archived recording 550 years old.archived recording 6While 40 gray aliens take turns —wesley morrisAnd Colleen Rafferty —archived recording 6— gently batting my knockers.wesley morrisColleen Rafferty is like alien abduction interrogations. They’re just like —archived recording 6Look, it wasn’t my worst Wednesday night.wesley morrisFive stars. But it’s been a minute since the show created a character with that kind of stickiness. This 51st season has been really dry. The show actually needs maybe more stars. But it definitely needs sharper ideas to turn some of this cast into stars. Plus, I mean, I just think the show has become extremely reliant on celebrities and trendiness. Famous people have made cameos throughout the history of the show. And sometimes magic can happen when they do. But a lot of the time, I’m just home watching, hungry for some laughs.archived recording 7Now I’m seeing that Lisa has some news —wesley morrisTake this sketch from this season with Teyana Taylor that’s supposed to be a joke on the Broncos and Monday Night Football.archived recording 8Sir, what’s your name?archived recording 9Oz Jarrett Stidham.archived recording 8Who now?archived recording 9Jarrett Stidham. I’m Denver’s starting quarterback tonight.wesley morrisWhat exactly is the point of this sketch?archived recording 9We got a great team here. I think we can win this game.archived recording 8Yeah. But Jarrett, come on. Back to you, Troy.archived recording 7Oh, so that —wesley morrisIs it that the Broncos quarterback has no personality? That Lisa Salters is bad at her job, or that her job is just weird?archived recording 7And speaking of surprises, it’s one part sugar and all parts spice this week on an all new Quefs.wesley morrisIs it that Troy and Joe Buck are so square and lame that it’d be funny hearing them say the word Quefs over and over again?archived recording 7Keys to the game, brought to you by FanDuel. And oh my God, talking Quefs.wesley morrisAll it makes me want to do is watch Quefs. I want to change the channel from whatever these people are doing, just to watch this fake show that is also probably just as bad, but it’ll definitely be more interesting than this non-satire satire.So now I’m just wondering if it’s time for “Saturday Night Live” to become Saturday Night dead. Please, please wait. Sorry. Don’t hang up. I actually know a lot of smart people who don’t agree with this opinion. Like my guest today, Jason Zinoman. He’s a critic at “The Times.” And, he’s a great thinker about comedy and late night TV in general. I just wanted to talk about “The Late Show” going out of business, and what the value of keeping a show like “SNL” around might be.So we’re going to talk about whether it’s worth saving. And whether I’m wrong.[MUSIC PLAYING]Jason Zinoman, welcome to “Cannonball.” I’m going to start by telling you just something that was on my mind last year.Please.“Saturday Night Live” turns 50 years old. And during the year of celebration of this 50th anniversary, I mean, it went on, from what, February to December? I don’t want to cast aspersions. I enjoyed a lot of it. But what I thought during that experience was, what if it just ended tonight? It was a good 50 years. Do I need a 51st? I don’t even think I needed like 37. But that’s me. Where are you in terms of your relationship to this show? I mean, if it ended tomorrow, how would you feel?jason zinomanI’d be upset. I’d be upset. I mean, I have been where you are.wesley morrisOh, talk to me.jason zinomanYeah. I mean, in fact, I think one of the greatest traditions of “Saturday Night Live”—wesley morrisIs wishing.jason zinoman— is hating “Saturday Night Live” and specifically saying it used to be better.wesley morrisSure.jason zinomanRight? That’s what everyone does. And the cliche is true, certainly with me, that your favorite cast is your first cast. I first watched it, and it was the Christopher Guest Martin Short, Billy Crystal year unlike any other year. And I fell in love with it there. And then I got hooked on it with the Jan Hooks, Phil Hartman, Dana Carvey. So I love that period. And that’s the greatest.And then you got a moment — I don’t exactly track on this perfectly, but pretty close, where you have a moment where you see other sketch shows. You see “Monty Python,” you see “Chappelle’s Show,” you see “Mr. Show,” “Key and Peele,” and you’re like, this is funnier.wesley morris“Kids in the Hall.”jason zinoman“Kids in the Hall.”wesley morris“Kids in the Hall.”jason zinomanThese are all more ambitious, funnier, better crafted comedy. Why isn’t “SNL” as good as this? And then you say, this is terrible. It’s bad. You start hating “SNL“. I’ve been there. I’ve also felt like it would be better if it’s gone. And now I’m in a new state. Now part of it, full disclosure, is part of our jobs is to follow the stuff.wesley morrisSure.jason zinomanSo I might have checked out if it wasn’t for professional responsibility. But I never did check out. And I’ve come to see that those shows we mentioned are doing something fundamentally different than “Saturday Night Live.”wesley morrisWhich is what?jason zinomanSo “Saturday Night Live” is actually not trying to be — it’s not organized to be the funniest show possible.wesley morrisIt’s not?jason zinomanNo, it doesn’t want to be that.wesley morrisIt’s not organized to be, or it is retroactively saying, you know, we were never organized to be the funniest show?jason zinomanI think the way Lorne Michaels has organized the making of that show, as opposed to these other shows, it is deliberately not set up to be consistently as funny as it can be.wesley morrisOK.jason zinomanRight? So what’s it trying to be? And what are the evidence of it?wesley morrisWait. I want to start with how it’s not set up to do that.jason zinomanAll right. So first off, it’s live. Second of all, it’s weekly. And it’s weekly in this very peculiar way. This way has sort of developed over time, that they write these sketches last second. And the biggest thing is the cast. This is the most prestigious show in comedy on television. They could have anybody they want. They always get young unknowns. Why do they do that?And I think there’s a couple. What they want to be is relevant, topical, and exciting. And one of the things about having young cast members is you see the making of a star. There’s something particularly exciting about seeing one of these “SNL” cast members. And there’s no doubt that “SNL” has produced more superstars in comedy than any other platform.wesley morrisThat’s not what we’re here to talk about. No, I mean, there’s no argument from me.jason zinomanNo, I know. But I’ll give you a comparison. I was watching the Spurs playoff game. And Dylan Harper had this incredible game. And in sports, it’s fun. We know Wemby is great. But we see this rookie do something incredible. And you’re like, oh, wait, this guy is going to be — he could be one of the best players in the game.wesley morrisYes.jason zinomanThat happens at “SNL” in the way it doesn’t happen in other shows consistently. And it happened this year. It happened this year with Ashley Padilla. And there is an excitement to that that is part of what the show does and cares about more than getting the most polished, funniest sketches that they possibly can every week, the most polished cast every week. And I think, yes, that 50th anniversary celebration went overboard. But what did it also say? Look at the interest in that show. How many things —wesley morrisYou mean the network generated interest?jason zinomanNo, no.wesley morrisOr you mean like a viewer, a Saturday Night Live fans or regular watchers interest?jason zinomanI mean, you’re 100 percent right. There is like a media interest, and there’s a network pushing it. But I don’t think there’s anything else in comedy right now that appeals to multiple generations.wesley morrisMm-hmm That’s true.jason zinomanMy kids, teenagers, they don’t share the same interests that their parents do. They don’t watch same things. But they’re interested in “SNL“. It’s one of the few things left in the culture where we have this common thing we can talk about over generations. And it’s unique. And I think it’s the remarkable thing.Last year, there was a book on Lorne Michaels by Susan Morrison, which I recommend. And there was a documentary by Morgan Neville. And you really see that he’s a singular producer. He’s the great producer of our time. He’s managed to keep a television show relevant, not just on TV, but relevant for 50 years. Now what he hasn’t done are things we probably agree on. It’s often terrible. The sketches are hit and miss sometimes. And —I mean, every week there’s a hit and miss. And I don’t about you, Jason, but I watch this show still to this day in its entirety. I go from the cold open to the 10 minutes to 1 or the 10 to 1 or whatever they call it. I mean, I’m there for most of the show.wesley morrisAnd I just feel like many times, there’s not one sketch here that either lets a cast member shine or they miss shine. Or I just don’t know how this even got out of the garage, onto the set, and then into my home. These cast members aren’t that exciting as a class to me. They’re often indistinguishable. I find often, especially in sketches where the cast members have to be dressed the same, I can’t tell anybody apart sometimes.jason zinomanYeah, yeah.wesley morrisBut I guess I would wonder, what we lose without it.jason zinomanWould you agree with this? If we lost it, nothing replaces it. Nothing would fill its space. And if anything would fill its space, it would be something fundamentally smaller and of lower ambition. What I learned from the Susan Morrison book and the documentary is that it’s a tremendously inefficient show. It’s got a ridiculous budget that doesn’t make any sense for television in 2026.It’s one of these dinosaurs that operates like the internet didn’t happen. And they’ve got all these — and one of the beautiful things about “SNL” is because it has all these inefficiencies — and we see this in the media too. It’s like we’re so damn efficient, that we only do these narrow things. There’s room for out of a lot of mediocrity or worse, for weird stuff to bubble up.wesley morrisThat’s true. Yes. I mean, so this plays as a potential lab for weird stuff. And look, in 50 years, I have seen some of the funniest, weirdest things that I still think about because I saw them on “SNL“. I mean, Toonces the Driving Cat. Not even —jason zinomanI got a shirt.wesley morris— close to —jason zinomanI got a Toonces shirtwesley morris— not even close to the weirdest thing that’s happened on the show.archived recording 10See, I told you he could drive.archived recording 11Toonces, look out! [SCREAMING][MUSIC PLAYING]jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisBut I mean, just a thing that has lodged itself like a completely illogical, feed of irreverence that just — it lives in me.jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisRight? The theme song lives in me. This is all to say, I understand the value of the show. I just think it’s batting average has gotten very low.jason zinomanWell, even if we stipulate the show’s terrible, everything you say, it’s no good, there’s no denying that it’s done a good job of weeding through people and cycling new people, and then reinventing itself while keeping the same bones of what it is.wesley morrisOh yes, it hasn’t changed in 51 years.jason zinomanBut the people have changed.wesley morrisYes, the people have changed.jason zinomanAnd so that is like you’ve got a hit show and you’re going to bring these new people. That’s part of the DNA of the show. And I think it’s one of the strengths of the show. It’s one of the reasons why it’s a flexible institution. And I think historically, they’ve always come from improv houses.wesley morrisYes.jason zinomanAnd with some stand-ups sprinkled in. I think a few years ago, they started to go more — tried to find people more from the internet. And the reason that I think Ashley —wesley morrisI know where this is going.jason zinoman— Ashley Padilla is successful, one, she’s older than most of them. She’s 32. She’s had some experience. And she’s had specifically the Groundlings, old school “SNL“. She’s actually an actress.wesley morrisIs she the only Groundlings veteran or graduate or —jason zinomanI think Mikey Day and Chloe Fineman also have Groundlings.wesley morrisWho, at this point, are veterans on this show.jason zinomanThey’re the older. I think they’re before this shift. But I think Ashley is bringing something different to the mix.wesley morrisChops. You wrote a wonderful piece about close reading what she’s been doing this season on the show. And I think one of the best sketches on this season this year was the I guess we’ll call her the MAGA mom.jason zinomanYep.wesley morrisTalk about the MAGA mom sketch and how the levels work in that.jason zinomanThe MAGA mom sketch is a great example, I think, of “SNL” operating at its best right now. Because it is about the thing that we’ve seen all over the place, which is — and how frustrating it can be — which is somebody realizing —wesley morrisThat’s the comedy of it.jason zinoman— 10 years late, oh, I’m going to have a — turns out Donald Trump doesn’t always tell the truth. And I’m going to convert. And it’s about both the kind of preening naivete of that.wesley morrisShe’s gathered the family to sit in the living room —jason zinomanTo talk to her kids.wesley morris— because she has an announcement.archived recording 12There’s something I need to tell you all first.archived recording 13Oh, OK. What is it, mom?archived recording 14Is everything OK?archived recording 12I’m only going to say it if after I do, you promise you will not react. No talking, no faces, no nothing.archived recording 13Mom, what is going on?jason zinomanBut it’s also about something bigger. So it’s topical, but it’s also about changing your mind and the ability to show grace to this person changing their mind.wesley morrisWhich she asks them to show her. Part of her wind up to revealing this about herself is this character is like, but you have to be nice. And when I tell you what I’m about to tell you, you cannot react.archived recording 12What I have to tell you is I may have changed my mind about Trump.archived recording 13What?[CROWD YELLING]jason zinomanThe levels are she’s telling them she’s had this conversion. But she really wants them to get mad, and to get mad at them back, which speaks to our political moment. We all would rather fight with each other than actually —wesley morrisSee, I told you! I told you couldn’t handle it. That’s why people hate you.archived recording 12I feel now like he might be bad for our country.archived recording 13Oh, yeah. You got it! What I said! What I said!jason zinomanSo it’s politically smart. It’s like emotionally smart. But I would argue, the core of it, the core, the reason it actually is funny is her timing. Nobody else would deliver those lines the way she was. There’s a musicality, a baseline to the way she says —wesley morrisShe’s listening to whatever else is — whatever is happening with the four people on the sofa and what Alexander Skarsgard is doing, who plays her husband in this sketch. And she’s timing whatever it is she’s doing in some ways to what she’s hearing.jason zinomanCompletely, completely. In the moment — you also see again, another, I think, essential part of “Saturday Night Live” is the live part of it. And they’re breaking. The kids, the people, the actors playing, the kids are breaking in that moment.archived recording 12The things that are happening, no one could have seen coming.jason zinomanThey’re both trying not to laugh in character and as actors. The fun of that, it becomes not about politics or about this family. It becomes about us watching these sketch performers trying not to break in a way that can only be suspenseful in a show that you know is live.archived recording 12They made me feel worried about trans people. But now I’m realizing I don’t really get what the problem is.wesley morrisWe’ll come back to this live situation. But I want to come back to Ashley Padilla for a second. Because the other thing that’s great about her, because you really convinced — I mean, I knew I liked her. But then you put that spotlight on her. And the other thing that’s great about her in these sketches is she has a wonderful voice. There are two great voices on this show right now. The other one is Marcelo Hernandez. And they need to figure out something to do with that voice.jason zinomanYes, he should have four characters.wesley morrisAnd Sebastian Maniscalco is hilarious. Yeah.archived recording 14Oh, you want me to argue against mama?Oh, I didn’t know that’s what you wanted.jason zinomanAnd that’s an impersonation. But he’s identified — he knows what’s funny and ridiculous about that guy.wesley morrisYes, yes.jason zinomanBut Ashley Padilla, there’s something just mellifluous in her raised voice.wesley morrisYep.archived recording 12If I hear a single I told you so, I will go see the Melania movie tonight.jason zinomanI think her and Marcelo are the backbone right now. But I mean, I think Sarah Sherman does something specific that is really interesting, and all her the gore stuff that she does is interesting. And there’s a few — I can’t say this is a great year. But this is a year that showed promise. So let’s look at that. The sketch I want to point to, which is Auctioneers in a Crumbling Marriage, which is with Sarah Sherman and Matt Damon. And —wesley morrisI love this sketch.jason zinomanIt’s the 10 to 1 sketch where they take a big swing.wesley morrisWhich means you’re asleep and the best sketches happen —jason zinomanWhich is —wesley morrisOops.jason zinomanHere’s a big difference between —wesley morrisThat doesn’t always happen, which is why we go to sleep. I just want to say.jason zinomanI didn’t watch this episode live. So I just woke up and saw people are talking about. And they were talking about this sketch.archived recording 16I’m home, honey bunny, honey bunny, honey bunny. Can I get a smile? Can I get a hi? Can I get a hello? Honey bunny, can I get a hug? Honey bunny, honey bunny.archived recording 17Well, look who comes crawling home late as sin. Where have you been Bean, bean, Bean bean, Bean bean, Bean bean, Bean bean, Bean bean?jason zinomanThis sketch is a satire of scenes from a marriage. And it’s this couple who’s having a marital spat. But they’re speaking in the familiar cadence of an auctioneer who’s saying, 1,000, 2000, 3004. And the idea is, what if these people always talk like that but without ever explaining it or underlining it?archived recording 17You said you’d be home by 8:00, 8:15, 8:30, 8:35 with traffic. Now it’s 11:45, 11:50. Do I hear 11:55, 55, 55, 55 55, midnight? Bold coming from the man past his prime in a cowboy hat.archived recording 16I can explain —And so they start doing it. And they establish the premise of the joke. And to some degree it belongs to the genre of hitting the same beat over and over again. But what makes it, I think, escalate is they start doing tongue twisters.wesley morrisYes, almost immediately, though. Yeah.archived recording 17I know you’re with them sinful girls. I know you’re with Bella Bailey, Bobbi Bambi, Birdie Beulah, Boogie Betsy, Betty Bonnie, Brenda —archived recording 16No, no, no, no, no, no. Maybe.archived recording 17You were with Betty Botter. And I bet you bought her butter.archived recording 16I would never buy her butter, cause I know your butter’s better.archived recording 17I know you like her butter better cause I better butter’s hot.archived recording 16Now, how can you blame me, folks when how many times —jason zinomanAnd they get more and more difficult. So it becomes about language. It’s a comedy of language. And “SNL” at worse is all about cue cards. That’s what drives me nuts.wesley morrisJason, this is a huge pet peeve of mine.jason zinomanMe too.wesley morrisIt’s gotten more cue cardy as the years go on.jason zinomanAgreed.wesley morrisAnd the more famous the person, the less time there is to rehearse. This is like such a tangent. Anyway, keep —jason zinomanNo, no, no, I’m with you. I’m with you. And, I mean, I think I could justify it because of the ridiculous structure.wesley morrisI didn’t catch Matt Damon. He definitely had cue cards. But I didn’t catch him looking.jason zinomanNeither did I.wesley morrisI mean —jason zinomanOh, I think — maybe I’m wrong, but I think Sarah Sherman memorized those lines.archived recording 17Ahem I had a headache. I had a backache. I had a toothache. I was cold. I had a bad day. I had a long night. I had a big lunch, I was tired. I had a phone call with my sister. I had a call with my mother. I had a fight on a phone call with my sister and mother. And I had a headache. I had a migraine. And most importantly, I’m old!wesley morrisOh, I think these were memorized.jason zinomanYeah.wesley morrisI mean, somebody was clearly there holding something they could see or however they used the teleprompter cue card situation. But I was really dialed in a way that I’m typically not with these sketches because I’m just looking at them look past the person they’re in a scene with.But part of what made this so thrilling was you’ve got these two performers who are preparing — they’re so prepared. I mean, it’s funny. It’s kind of all awesome, dictionary definition awesome to see. So when you see something like this and you’re just like this is what should happen every week. The cue cards drive me nuts, Jason.jason zinomanYeah, yeah.wesley morrisI can’t take the reliance on the cue cards. And listen, I went back and looked at — I just was watching some old sketches just to see was this always true? And it wasn’t, or it wasn’t as obvious that the Trump Loy of where the cue cards were placed and the actors were blocked must have been different or something, because I can’t catch Glenn Close using those cue cards.jason zinomanRight, right.wesley morrisThe great Patrick Swayze Chris Farley dance off to become a Chippendales dancer.archived recording 18This is impossible. Can’t we just hire them both?archived recording 19No, we’ve been through this. We’ve only got the budget for one dancer.archived recording 20Yeah, but they’re both so great. I can’t decide between them.wesley morrisI don’t know. I mean, even if they are reading, Mike Myers, Kevin Kneeland and Jan Hooks play the judges of this dance off between Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley. I don’t see any cue cards happening there. And I’m not thinking about it.nealon)^I know you’ve been put through a long, long audition, and it’s been hard, but I think that in itself is a testament to how good both of you are and just how difficult our choice is. I wish I could just flip a coin and be done with it, but we can’t. We’re Chippendales. Marcy, music.jason zinomanRight. That’s actually a great example, because this is what “SNL” has always done well, which is that even though some amazing writers have come through there, like George Meyer, the Toonces, all sorts of brilliant — Conan, obviously. It’s fundamentally about performers.wesley morrisYes.jason zinomanAnd that Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley, they’re just — The commitment is hilarious!["working for the weekend," loverboy]Will you come out tonightEveryone’s trying to get it rightwesley morrisAnd it’s timeless because of those performers. And that’s when the cue cards kind of — Are they there? Are they not? Does it matter? The lines don’t matter. That’s why, if you compare it — There are sketch shows like, I would say, Mr. Show, Monty Python, which lean on the cleverness of the premise and the wit of the lines.jason zinomanYeah, but those are taped shows.wesley morrisYes.jason zinomanThe same was true for Kids in the Hall. I mean, to me, I was always happier to watch Kids in the Hall, great Canadian sketch show —wesley morrisYes.jason zinomanThan “SNL“, most of the time. But I think that — Anyway.wesley morrisTo support your point, It’s possible to do both. Like the Ben Stiller Show comes to mind.jason zinomanOh, my God! The Ben Stiller Show! One of the great sketch shows, I mean, ever!wesley morrisEver, ever.jason zinomanAnd was that writerly? Was that performance? It was both.wesley morrisIt was both.jason zinomanIt was both. So you could —wesley morrisAnd that show had a deep bench.jason zinomanOh, my God. Yes, yes. So great, so great. With Jeanine Garofalo.wesley morrisI totally forgot about the Ben Stiller Show, but I watched it every week. When Ben Stiller started, I was like — Ben Stiller. In Living Color, to me, many weeks, was a better sketch show than Saturday Night Live.jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisRight? Not live. Taped. Didn’t matter, because people broke.jason zinomanYeah.wesley morrisRight? Like the actors would break. There’d be crazy things that would happen in these sketches that you can’t believe is happening in prime time, let alone at 11:52. So I think there’s a kind of professionalism, I mean, just like comedic professionalism, that I think is kind of missing now, and it’s just too much of a crapshoot for me.jason zinomanYeah.wesley morrisIt’s just too much of a crapshoot. And I’m not getting — One Matt Damon out of what? How many guests did they have this year? How many episodes? 22 or something?jason zinomanYeah. Sarsgaard. You had some other —wesley morrisRight.jason zinomanBut look. I do think it goes into the — The liveness of it is part of it. Like, the guest host is a fascinating anomaly. Nothing else is like that on television. And it’s a huge risk. You’re going to perhaps torpedo a whole show if you have somebody who isn’t as talented as Matt Damon.wesley morrisHello, Tom Brady.jason zinomanYeah, exactly. There you go. There you go. But you could also get — Any time John Mulaney is a host —wesley morrisYes.jason zinomanI’m going to be excited. I mean, watch “SNL” more than I do. I don’t watch every single episode live.wesley morrisI don’t watch it every week, but I watch most weeks. OK.jason zinomanYeah.wesley morrisSo you think there are things about it — Let’s just say you talked me down.jason zinomanI’m glad to hear it. OK.wesley morrisLet’s say you talked me down.jason zinomanBut I also agree on the details of your argument.wesley morrisAll right, fine. You talked me down. So, we’re going to take a break. I want to expand what we’re really talking about here, I think. Because part of the reason that I started really thinking about this “SNL” cancellation question is there’s another show that’s actually going off the air right now.And part of the scandalous thought I had was, “Is the wrong show being canceled? Should the Stephen Colbert Late Show stay and “SNL” go?” It had a good run, “SNL“. It’s fine. Anyway, we’ll take a break.jason zinomanI got thoughts on that.wesley morrisAnd when we come back, we’ll just talk about what late night is, whether or not we need it, and why. We’ll be right back.OK, we’re back.jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisWe’re talking about “SNL“, but we’re also kind of talking about — I would like to now think about what late night television is, what it is good for. What is watching network television after the news? Because that’s when a lot of these shows would be on. Every one of these shows is happening after your local news. What’s 60 years of that for? Seventy years of that, at this point.jason zinomanI mean, it’s a really good question. They’re trying to answer this question. I think you have two narratives about this that kind of contradict each other. On one level, the internet has made all of its old uses obsolete.wesley morrisRight. So I’m saying after the local news, for instance, but are you really experiencing Jimmy Kimmel when the local news on your ABC affiliate goes off the air?jason zinomanI mean, a lot of people aren’t, right? So traditionally, it was so you could joke about the day’s news, what happened. You could sum up the day before you went to sleep. And sometimes, it was kind of a sleepy, soothing joke like Johnny Carson.And other times, it was a little more subversive joke like, say, David Letterman. But now, by the time late night comes around, everybody’s already made jokes about the news on social media, TikTok, etc. So that purpose is done. And then you’ve got the purpose of conversations with people promoting stuff or guests being funny. That has also been replaced by YouTube, podcasts, and this kind of thing.So there’s this narrative, which is not entirely wrong, that late night is less and less relevant. There’s less and less of a purpose to it because of the internet, right? At the same time, read the news. The president is attacking — I mean, it’s worth pausing at how crazy — This has never happened, that the president has put a target on all the late night hosts and is attacking them consistently. And arguably, the most effective example of resistance didn’t come from law firms or universities.wesley morrisNot shots. Not shots at the law firm! Jason Zinoman, speak! Speak your truth!jason zinomanBut came from Jimmy Kimmel.wesley morrisYeah.jason zinomanCame from Jimmy Kimmel. They protested, and they pushed back Disney. They made Disney have a backbone, right? So you can’t exactly call late night irrelevant when it’s —wesley morrisIn the cross-hairs of what we’re going to traditionally say is the most powerful job in the world.jason zinomanSo what explains this? Why did people get so outraged and push back on Disney? Is it simply because people care more about celebrities than they do about law partners? I don’t know. I think that late night is actually more, as you point out, an old form that people have watched with their families. It’s become an institution. I think that it became more political starting with The Daily Show. I should say, the Jon Stewart version, which is 2000-ish.archived recording (john stewart)A very special, live edition of “The Daily Show.” It is now official. We can call it. At 855 hours and two minutes of this election night, the state of Florida and its 25 electoral votes, with 100 percent of its precincts reporting, will go to George W. Bush.[CROWD BOOING]And the crowd loves it.jason zinomanThat made late night much more political, and I think that had huge ramifications over what network late night became.wesley morrisOK. So we’re talking about this show, which existed on a Viacom channel called Comedy Central.jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisRight? Didn’t have a huge viewership. But the arrival of the Jon Stewart era of The Daily Show goosed these other late night shows that it was not up against, we should say. Because I mean, for people, this is important to say. The Daily Show starts at 11.jason zinomanYep.wesley morrisThese late night shows start at 11:35.jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisAnd so you could — I mean, I, many times, would watch both.jason zinomanYes. But wait. The other thing about Stuart, I think, and this relates to “SNL“, there’s sketch in the Daily Show, the correspondents. And the reason this is important is there was a moment when The Daily Show competed with “SNL” as a platform for stars. Think of the number of stars.wesley morrisI’ve never considered this before.jason zinomanSteve Carell, Ed Helms, Trevor Noah, obviously, but I’m missing some. Stephen Colbert.wesley morrisStephen Colbert. Wyatt Cenac.jason zinomanWyatt Cenac!wesley morrisHe’s been on this show before. Great correspondents.jason zinomanYep. It became, like “SNL“, a place to make stars. And it really did — You’re right. Not necessarily because of the audience, but it had a huge impact. And even, I remember when Letterman started to get more political.archived recording (david letterman)Ladies and gentlemen, it’s time for another new segment on the program. It’s George W. Bush invigorating America’s youth.archived recording (george w. bush)Need to maintain spending discipline in our nation’s capital. I had planned to protect small business owners —jason zinomanAnd it felt like a reaction to the success of The Daily Show.wesley morrisBut I also think that that moment — I mean, it’s also important to think about, because we’re talking about now some kind of shift in terms of politics becoming much more a part of the way late night television functioned. But, I mean, all throughout the Vietnam War, during an assortment of national tragedies, I think what people wanted from a person like Johnny Carson, just to pick the most famous example of that person practicing the art form during these tumultuous times, was to take the temperature down.jason zinomanYep.wesley morrisRight? Johnny Carson would deliver a barbed comment about, maybe, Nixon.jason zinomanYep.wesley morrisI haven’t seen every joke he told during the Vietnam War, but I’m going to guess he didn’t make a lot of jokes about the Vietnam War. And he certainly was good at making fun of Reagan, but Reagan was kind of his homie, in some way.jason zinomanOh, yeah.archived recording (johnny carson)How do you do that? I mean, how do you balance the budget?archived recording (ronald reagan)Well, balancing the budget is like protecting your —archived recording (johnny carson)You don’t spend more than you take in, right.archived recording (ronald reagan)It’s like protecting your virtue. You have to learn to say no.archived recording (johnny carson)There’s got to be another way.What’s the second option?jason zinomanHe was hardcore institutionalist, right?wesley morrisOh, yeah.jason zinomanHe was the picture of whatever they mean by institution. Johnny Carson, even if he didn’t want to be — And he still represents, in the minds of many people, a kind of Americana.wesley morrisThey would say he came with the TV.jason zinomanRight.wesley morrisAnd he, I think, of course, deserves most credit for making late night the thing that it became, right? And you’re right. He studiously avoided any kind of politics that would get him in too much trouble.jason zinomanNobody was even thinking about —wesley morrisYes. But let me ask you this. If some version of Carson was on today, how would we receive him?jason zinomanHe’d be Jimmy Fallon.archived recording (jimmy fallon)Welcome. I’m Jimmy Fallon, and I’ll be your host, for now.jason zinomanRight? I mean, he’s not quite the pal and pet that Jimmy Fallon has made himself into, but he’d be Jimmy Fallon. I mean, that the thing about the Tonight Show, I believe, is that it could never have handled a Letterman, as much as Letterman wanted that job.wesley morrisYeah. That’s a good point.jason zinomanHe wanted to host that show so bad.I don’t how long he would have lasted, but it wouldn’t have been long.wesley morrisI agree.jason zinomanBecause I think that the guardrails that come with the job, you either don’t see them as guardrails, or you chafe against them. So, I mean, I guess the question here — Because what we’re really talking about is the end of Stephen Colbert’s show.wesley morrisYes.jason zinomanAnd not just Stephen Colbert’s show, The Late Show. The reasons the show is being canceled include — I mean, because we really don’t know. I’m making quotes with my fingers. The show loses, I’ve read, as much as $40 million a week.wesley morrisWe don’t know.jason zinomanBut I’m just telling you what I read.wesley morrisNo, no. Of course.jason zinomanBut also, the Skydance-Paramount merger. You know?wesley morrisYeah.jason zinomanThe interest in eliminating a friction point that also, if you believe what is also being said, is a very expensive thorn in your side if you need the administration to approve this deal.wesley morrisYep.jason zinomanWhy not just make something go away and you save a lot of money, whether he’s beloved or not. I mean, maybe somebody was like, “He’ll just find another job. It’s fine.”wesley morrisYeah.jason zinomanBut, you know, he’s not the only person making this show every day.wesley morrisNo!jason zinomanJust to be clear.wesley morrisYes.jason zinomanIt’s an enormous staff.wesley morrisYes, yes.jason zinomanAnd so, I don’t know. What, really, are we losing when this show no longer comes on Monday through Friday?wesley morrisFirst of all, I think he’s the best conversationalist on late night right now. I think there’s a soulfulness to Stephen Colbert. He had Keanu Reaves on, and he asked him —archived recording (stephen colbert)What do you think happens when we die, Keanu Reeves?wesley morrisWhat happens when you die? He had to pause, and he was like —archived recording (keanu reeves)I know that the ones who love us will miss us.wesley morrisOne thing I know is people will miss you. You can’t imagine Jimmy Fallon on The Tonight Show. You can’t really imagine it on Kimmel.jason zinomanNo. They’d turn it into a game on Jimmy Fallon.wesley morrisThey’d turn it into a game.jason zinomanLike, “We’re going to play, What Happens When You Die!”wesley morrisYes, yes!jason zinomanSabrina Carpenter! You ready to go? We’re going to Velcro you off the side of the wall. And Questlove is going to throw a basketball at your head while you answer the question, what happens when you die? Yes, yes. No, there is a —wesley morrisI love that, by the way. I enjoy the games on The Jimmy Fallon Show.jason zinomanLook, there’s a play. And look, that’s winning. That was on Ellen’s show. That was on this show. But to some degree, what we lose depends on what replaces it. And what is replacing it? Byron Allen’s Comics Unleashed.wesley morrisPlease, Jason. I just ate. This is not the place to be trying to release my bowels. You know what Norm McDonald said about being on his show, Comics Unleashed? He said, “Comics have never been more leashed.” It’s not going to cause —jason zinomanThis show, by the way, for anybody who has never watched it, is just four comedians sitting around shooting the shit.wesley morrisYes.jason zinomanAnd often, three of them, you’ve never heard of.wesley morrisThree of them? And are we counting Byron?jason zinomanOK, good point.wesley morrisI have never heard of most people that pass through Comics Unleashed.jason zinomanIt is my job to follow comedy, so I know one. I know one at most, but not much more than that.wesley morrisSo, I don’t know. I feel like I’m actually — What you’re saying is really occurring to me now. I’m done with my CBS affiliate news, my local New York news. Like, good night. They’ve said good night to me. And you mean that I’m going to be sitting here watching Comics Unleashed?jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisWhich I’m assuming CBS isn’t even making, because it’s been being made for years.jason zinomanWell, here’s the interesting thing. It’s a completely different business model. They’re leasing it to Byron Allen. They can’t lose money on it.wesley morrisJason.jason zinomanThey can’t. He bought it.wesley morrisStop it.jason zinomanHe’s selling the ads.wesley morrisGreat. Fantastic. He’s renting the space.jason zinomanHe’s renting the space. He’s renting the space. So, what does that mean? To me, that says low-risk — because you can’t lose money if you’re leasing it — low reward. Comics Unleashed, the ceiling is very low.wesley morrisI’m now talking to you, and I’m feeling sadder about what has transpired. I mean, I think that there is a value to this time slot, and I think it’s the same value that it had at the peak of the format, when our parents were considering whether to have us. Right? And it’s the comfort and stability. It’s the thing that I think Jimmy Fallon is always being dinged for trying to provide in terrible times, which is Sabrina Carpenter Velcroed with a basketball coming at her head. I don’t even if that’s a real sketch.jason zinomanI love this take, because no one makes this case. No one makes the defense of Jimmy Fallon. I think you said Carson would be like Fallon. That’s like the best —wesley morrisThe nicest thing I’ve ever said about Jimmy Fallon.jason zinomanThat anyone’s said about Jimmy Fallon, certainly in the media.wesley morrisI don’t think he has any of Johnny Carson’s qualities. I just think that the point of him is similar.jason zinomanYes. I’m going to “yes and” this take, because I think it’s a good take. And I think that Fallon also, as you put it, lowers the temperature. And despite what I think people think, they know exactly what they’re doing. And who do I mean by “they“? Who’s producing this?wesley morrisIt’s Lorne Michaels.jason zinomanLorne Michaels. Lorne Michaels understands things that no other producer does.wesley morrisOh, my God. Jason, fuck you! Get out of here.jason zinomanHe understands that yes, the media is going to hate Jimmy Fallon. And maybe the ratings will fluctuate. But he’s providing this old school showbiz need that hasn’t vanished. There’s still people who want that.wesley morrisI am rolling my eyes so hard at you right now.jason zinomanYou’re going to make me cry!wesley morrisI hate you.jason zinomanI did my part, then. I did my part.wesley morrisAll right, fine. I mean, I already believed this in many ways about Fallon, but now I’m just — You know what I’m doing. By extension, Saturday Night Live, I still think the show needs some re-upholstering. And if it went off the air tomorrow, I still wouldn’t shed a tear because I did all that when it turned 50.jason zinomanBut what about The Tonight Show going off the air? How would you feel?wesley morrisI’d be fine. But the problem that you are identifying, though, is that nothing comes in its place.jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisRight? But, let’s just say something does.jason zinomanOK.wesley morrisI’d like to introduce you to a little game we play. It’s called “Late or Hate.”jason zinomanOh, no. OK.wesley morrisIs this person hosting a late night show or do you hate them too much to let them try?jason zinomanOh, no!wesley morrisLet’s give you a bunch of names.jason zinomanAll I gotta say is “Late or hate“?wesley morrisLate or hate.jason zinomanAll right, all right. Wait. Is this a prediction or what I —wesley morrisNah, just like what happens. What would happen if?jason zinomanLet’s do it.wesley morrisAmy Poehler.jason zinomanOh. Late. Late.wesley morrisZiwe.jason zinomanLate. Late.wesley morrisNow, what would it be like? I mean, because we already know she does the show. But the problem, the thing that we’re talking about is, as an institution, what would a person like Ziwe need to do?jason zinomanZiwe’s got range.wesley morrisYeah, sure.jason zinomanZiwe had a YouTube show. Then she went to Showtime, had two seasons, was canceled. I thought she was done for.wesley morrisShe can’t be killed.jason zinomanShe cannot be killed. She’s better than ever now. She’s back on YouTube, and she’s not quite doing the same sort of — She’s doing some of the “How many Black friends do you have,” trolling, but it’s a little more traditional. And I think she’s a talent who could, just like the long-lasting late night hosts, evolve into a host. The fact that she was able to reinvent herself now twice, subtly, tells me that she’s got something that could work.wesley morrisI would definitely watch it. Tina Fey.jason zinomanAs a host?wesley morrisYes. You can say hate. It’s contextual.jason zinomanOK. OK. I mean —wesley morrisLate or hate, Jason?jason zinomanGeez. I mean, I love Tina Fey, but as a host?wesley morrisWe all do.jason zinomanYeah.wesley morrisMarc Maron.jason zinomanNo. Hate.I mean, that’s too neurotic.wesley morrisAlso, I mean, talk about chafing against the format. I just don’t think he’d enjoy the obligations of the job. Ilana Glazer.jason zinomanHate.wesley morrisKenan Thompson.jason zinomanThat’s interesting.wesley morrisLongest-serving cast member on Saturday Night Live. A real stalwart in that he is so professional on that show that you barely notice that he’s just doing support work in a lot of these sketches.jason zinomanYeah.wesley morrisHe’s not even trying to get a laugh.jason zinomanI never thought about that.wesley morrisAnd still is funny anyway.jason zinomanStill is funny. It’s actually kind of an inspired idea, because what is he great at? As you say —wesley morrisIf he could do “What’s Up With That?” every night —jason zinomanHe can play off people. What does a talk show do? He makes the other person funny, plays the straight man, has the timing, sets it. He actually has a lot of the skills of a great talk show host. The question is, does he want it? It seems like he’s pretty entrenched where he is, but —wesley morrisEntrenched? I mean, he could retire tomorrow.jason zinomanThat’s true, but he doesn’t. Why?wesley morrisI mean, that’s a great question.jason zinomanI know.wesley morrisIt’s just a good job.jason zinomanIt’s a good job.wesley morrisIt’s a good job. What is he? Is he 50 yet? Is he mid-40s?jason zinomanI have no idea.wesley morrisI mean, I just think he seems comfortable in a way that doesn’t bother me.jason zinomanYes. No, I agree.wesley morrisOther people doing that, it might annoy me a little bit, but that show needs an uncle.jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisIt needs an uncle.jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisSo, with Kenan. Late or hate?jason zinomanOh, late. Late, late.wesley morrisNick Kroll.jason zinomanOh. You know?wesley morrisWho I just saw in an insurance commercial.jason zinomanI’m going to say late.wesley morrisOh, yeah, I like this one.jason zinomanI think Nick Kroll has got kind of a variety, like a kind of vaudeville era.wesley morrisHe would come out as somebody.jason zinomanYes.wesley morrisHe could be doing a shtick.jason zinomanThere aren’t talents like Nick Kroll anymore, in that he could do a little bit of everything. I actually think that could work. It’s funny, because the late night host isn’t necessarily the most brilliantly talented person.wesley morrisNo.jason zinomanYou know, Eddie Murphy’s not going to be a late night host.wesley morrisI mean, he’s on this list. So, Eddie Murphy, late or hate?jason zinomanOh, my God. You’re not going to get me to say hate for Eddie Murphy, but he’s not a good fit. You want him as a guest, not a host.wesley morrisHe’s a great guest. He’s not a host.jason zinomanBut that’s why I say Kenan makes all the sense in the world. Nick Kroll, he could do characters. He’s sharp.wesley morrisHe could carbonate the format too, right? I just would not trust him to come out as Nick Kroll every night, right? He’d be coming out to do a monologue as the Six Flags old man or something. I don’t know.jason zinomanWhat about this? Let’s say you’re king of the world. Saturday Night Live dies. We replace it.wesley morrisListen —jason zinomanWait a sec. We replace it with a talk show with the DNA of a sketch show. Right? So Nick Kroll does taped sketches for a half hour. OK? He does talk with John Mulaney or whatever for another half hour. And then you can have the last half hour for either weird sketches, or maybe you wouldn’t have it. What do you say?wesley morrisI say green light the show. But what you’re describing to me — And we’ll just end here. What you’re describing to me is the thing that made Colbert great in the first place, which is The Colbert Report.jason zinomanYes, yes. Oh, my God. Yeah.wesley morrisOne of the great feats of performance in the history of being other people, let alone yourself, I would say.jason zinomanUnderrated. Widely underrated. The Colbert Report was like The Daily Show in that it was a fake news show, but he was completely in character. So he would say one thing, and then he would mean something else. And then he had a real guest on who would be in their real voice. So he had to respond to them in real time.wesley morrisIn character.jason zinomanIn character, but also having the second meeting and having it also be funny. It was an incredible improvisational high-wire act that comedy nerds fell in love with and were amazed by, which is why he got the show.wesley morrisBut what I now wonder as we’re talking about this, just to end, is, do you think he has another one of those in him? Impossible. Like, I don’t how he did it as many nights as he did it. But could he do it again?jason zinomanI think it’s possible. I mean, what that looks — Look. Conan provides the example. There was no greater institutionalist in late night than Conan O’Brien. He was offended when they asked him to move The Tonight Show back half an hour because it would damage the franchise. But he showed all those late night hosts that you can reinvent yourself on podcasts, on Hot Ones, on an HBO travel show, and you can have a bigger impact, and you can host the Oscars.wesley morrisAnd be instantly one of the great Oscar hosts.jason zinomanExactly. And of all the hosts, he’s closest friends with Colbert. And so I think Colbert, my guess is he’s going to use the Conan thing as a model and have a collection of projects which may or may not be like The Colbert Report.wesley morrisWe’ll see.jason zinomanYeah, we’ll see.wesley morrisI hope it is.All right, Jason Zinoman. Thank you.jason zinomanIt was a pleasure. This was so much fun, coming on Cannonball.wesley morrisThanks for doing it.jason zinomanYeah, yeah.wesley morrisThis episode of Cannonball was produced by Janelle Anderson and John White. It was edited by Austin Mitchell. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Maddy Masiello, Kyle Grandillo, Nick Pitman, and Samantha Winter. It features original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong. Our theme music is by Justin Ellington, and Bobby Dougherty took the picture for our show art.Our audience team is Katie O’Brien and Maria Abdulkov. Our video team is Felice Leon and Brooke Minters. This episode was filmed by Daniele Sarti and Jadzia Erskine. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin and Amy Marino. We’re on YouTube. Shocker! We’ll be back next week. Thanks for listening, everybody.